beantownbubba wrote:The bottom line is that we are splitting the finest of hairs into microscopic slivers.
Absolutely. The other thing I though of today was that the first three records were made with almost no money whatsoever. If they had any sort of production budget for those albums I think they'd be higher on most lists. I mean the songs are there, it's really only the sound that suffers (yes, yes it was getting better by the time of SRO but still not sonically awesome from a production standpoint).
I think Brad joining the band for SRO made a world of difference and turned a really good band into one of the greatest bands in the world. People tend to underestimate drummers, especially guys who keep things relatively simple. I rank Brad Morgan in my top ten, maybe even my top five all-time favorite drummers. (Watching him play Levon's drum set last summer was a treat.) There is no one else in the band who I would put in my top ten all-time favorites on their instruments with the possible exception of Neff. (As songwriters, though, both Cooley and Hood are in my top five.) But Morgan is right up there with Moe Tucker and Charlie Watts.
I have nowhere else to go. There is no demand in the priesthood for elderly drug addicts
RevMatt wrote:I think Brad joining the band for SRO made a world of difference and turned a really good band into one of the greatest bands in the world.
Brad was in the band prior to Southern Rock Opera, at least at the shows I saw.
and I wouldn't say it's production alone that hurts the first two records. there is (IMO) some very uneven songwriting. I don't really enjoy "jokey" Patterson songs
And I knew when I woke up Rock N Roll would be here forever
I know that everyone considers SRO, DD, & TDS to be the holy trinity of DBT albums (and they are all phenomenal), but if I'm being truly honest with myself I'd have to say that Pizza Deliverance is my favorite. I'd put Tales Facing Up, Uncle Frank, One of These Days, & Bulldozers & Dirt up against the top 4 off of any other album.
I like Gangstabilly, Pizza Deliverance and Southern Rock Opera a whole lot more than some of the records that followed. Particularly The Dirty South, Brighter Than Creation's Dark and The Big To Do.
RevMatt wrote:I think Brad joining the band for SRO made a world of difference and turned a really good band into one of the greatest bands in the world.
Brad was in the band prior to Southern Rock Opera, at least at the shows I saw.
Yes, but SRO was the first studio album he played on.
I have nowhere else to go. There is no demand in the priesthood for elderly drug addicts
DD - flawless creative masterpiece (I even LOVE Your Daddy Hates Me)
One of my favorite DBT tracks, and I wish they'd play it one of these days. For those of you who see lots of shows, is it ever in the rotation? I just love the guitar work on it and the opening verse is one of my favorites.
I know your Daddy hates me and I got a room in hell reserved. I know he wants to kill me and it’s the least that I deserve But I always loved your Daddy, that’s something that I know you know. Just sometimes don’t do what I ought to, sometimes I yes when I should no.
Who can't relate to that last line? So simple and profound at the same time.
DD - flawless creative masterpiece (I even LOVE Your Daddy Hates Me)
One of my favorite DBT tracks, and I wish they'd play it one of these days. For those of you who see lots of shows, is it ever in the rotation? I just love the guitar work on it and the opening verse is one of my favorites.
I know your Daddy hates me and I got a room in hell reserved. I know he wants to kill me and it’s the least that I deserve But I always loved your Daddy, that’s something that I know you know. Just sometimes don’t do what I ought to, sometimes I yes when I should no.
Who can't relate to that last line? So simple and profound at the same time.
Apparently we're in the minority on this one, but it almost seems majestic to me. They played it in D.C. last summer & it sizzled.
A thousand clusterfucks will not kill my tiny light
Zip City wrote:and I wouldn't say it's production alone that hurts the first two records. there is (IMO) some very uneven songwriting. I don't really enjoy "jokey" Patterson songs
Yeah, this is where I'm at. Every Cooley song on the first 2 albums is top notch, but Patterson is uneven. His earlier songs don't soar and smolder quite as much as some of his stuff down the line.
I really don't have any issues with the early production.
As far as what I've gravitated toward, Patterson's stuff has been hit and miss the last few albums. For my listening, almost all the filler on BTCD was his. But he saved the TBTD, IMO. That was his record. Now, for GGB, outside of Used to be a Cop (which is my favorite song), there's not a Patterson track that's grabbed me yet. Of course, that may well change with more listens and seeing them live for the first time since the album came out.
pallister wrote:As far as what I've gravitated toward, Patterson's stuff has been hit and miss the last few albums. For my listening, almost all the filler on BTCD was his. But he saved the TBTD, IMO. That was his record. Now, for GGB, outside of Used to be a Cop (which is my favorite song), there's not a Patterson track that's grabbed me yet. Of course, that may well change with more listens and seeing them live for the first time since the album came out.
The filler on BTCD is pretty evenly spread for me.
Patterson: Crystal Meth, Monument Valley, Opening Act Cooley: Bob (although it makes me chuckle), Checkout Time in Vegas Shonna: Homefield Advantage, Purgatory Line
If I was their "album editor" I'd have probably dropped Huston and Home Front, too, but they're more enjoyable to me than what's here.
Patterson's first "great" song, by which I mean he did something few if any songwriters had done before, was "The Living Bubba." But it wasn't until SRO that he was able to come up with songs like that consistently. I don't know what was the first great Cooley song because I don't know the chronology of his songs. But both writers had great character driven songs on SRO.
I don't think there is a weak track on BTCD. The only song I've ever skipped is "The Man I Shot", not because I think it is weak but many times when I put that album on I am in the mood for the mellower songs and don't want to hear that heavy, power chord riff. But I am of the opinion that BTCD is Patterson's strongest album. The songs are pretty deep and atmospheric. Interesting how passionate fans can have such divergent opinions.
I don't dislike ABAAC. If the album has problems, it is not necessarily with the songwriting. It might be the arrangements or maybe the production. In some places it sounds like one of the Twin Tone era Replacements albums -- albums which I love, but not for the same reasons why I love TDS and SRO. But other parts of the album remind me on Neil Young and The Horse as well as The Faces. Maybe the "problem" with ABAAC is that the band didn't have an idea of what the album was supposed to sound like. Every album since then the band has had a specific sound in mind. BTCD has that smokey, mellow, Spooner Oldham/John Neff vibe. TBTD was the hard rock album. And GGB is The Muscle Shoals album. But ABAAC is kind of like the "we don't want to be pigeonholed as a "southern rock" band but we haven't quite decided where to go so here is some 80's indie rock combined with a bit of The Horse and maybe some Stones/Small Faces for you" album.
I have nowhere else to go. There is no demand in the priesthood for elderly drug addicts
RevMatt wrote:Patterson's first "great" song, by which I mean he did something few if any songwriters had done before, was "The Living Bubba." But it wasn't until SRO that he was able to come up with songs like that consistently. I don't know what was the first great Cooley song because I don't know the chronology of his songs. But both writers had great character driven songs on SRO.
I don't think there is a weak track on BTCD. The only song I've ever skipped is "The Man I Shot", not because I think it is weak but many times when I put that album on I am in the mood for the mellower songs and don't want to hear that heavy, power chord riff. But I am of the opinion that BTCD is Patterson's strongest album. The songs are pretty deep and atmospheric. Interesting how passionate fans can have such divergent opinions.
I don't dislike ABAAC. If the album has problems, it is not necessarily with the songwriting. It might be the arrangements or maybe the production. In some places it sounds like one of the Twin Tone era Replacements albums -- albums which I love, but not for the same reasons why I love TDS and SRO. But other parts of the album remind me on Neil Young and The Horse as well as The Faces. Maybe the "problem" with ABAAC is that the band didn't have an idea of what the album was supposed to sound like. Every album since then the band has had a specific sound in mind. BTCD has that smokey, mellow, Spooner Oldham/John Neff vibe. TBTD was the hard rock album. And GGB is The Muscle Shoals album. But ABAAC is kind of like the "we don't want to be pigeonholed as a "southern rock" band but we haven't quite decided where to go so here is some 80's indie rock combined with a bit of The Horse and maybe some Stones/Small Faces for you" album.
I don't think ABAAC and GGB's sounds were that intentional.
I don't think ABAAC had an intentional sound. But I do think GGB is. I say this from reading the interviews in the past couple years. They said they wanted to do an album that paid tribute to Muscle Shoals.
My theory is that because they didn't know what kind of sound they wanted on ABAAC, they have been more intentional since then.
I have nowhere else to go. There is no demand in the priesthood for elderly drug addicts
Iowan wrote: The filler on BTCD is pretty evenly spread for me.
Patterson: Crystal Meth, Monument Valley, Opening Act Cooley: Bob (although it makes me chuckle), Checkout Time in Vegas Shonna: Homefield Advantage, Purgatory Line
If I was their "album editor" I'd have probably dropped Huston and Home Front, too, but they're more enjoyable to me than what's here.
Of those Purgatory Line is the only one I'm kind of lukewarm about (Homefield advantage is weak lyrically but the music makes up for it). Crystal Meth is a nice bridge to Goode's Field Road and the rest of your list are some of my very favorites. Especially The Opening Act & Monument Valley.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
Production to me is the whole shooting match, in some ways even more important than the songs. Poor production, either through lack of money or just a bad producer, can absolutely ruin a fine collection of songs and make them nigh unlistenable (see Tom Petty's Full Moon Fever (blech) or Jason Isbell's Sirens of the Ditch). Good production can save a fair to middling collection of songs (Replacements All Shook Down or Jason Isbell & The 400 Unit). If Pizza Deliverance didn't sound like mud, I'm sure it would top a lot of favorites lists. Maybe mine.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
Iowan wrote: The filler on BTCD is pretty evenly spread for me.
Patterson: Crystal Meth, Monument Valley, Opening Act Cooley: Bob (although it makes me chuckle), Checkout Time in Vegas Shonna: Homefield Advantage, Purgatory Line
If I was their "album editor" I'd have probably dropped Huston and Home Front, too, but they're more enjoyable to me than what's here.
Of those Purgatory Line is the only one I'm kind of lukewarm about (Homefield advantage is weak lyrically but the music makes up for it). Crystal Meth is a nice bridge to Goode's Field Road and the rest of your list are some of my very favorites. Especially The Opening Act & Monument Valley.
I love Monument Valley and Opening Act. I think Opening Act is almost religious in nature. It reminds me of a Tobias Wolff story which is the absolute highest compliment I can give it. Crystal Meth is a song that needed to be written given the destruction that drug has inflicted on rural America. In the past ten years Crystal Meth did to rural America what crack did to urban America between 1985 - 1995. But country music and the evangelical church has been mostly silent on the issue. (Rap music and the Black church were anything but silent about the crack epidemic.) Patterson Hood and a few other alt. country song writers are the only ones who have really addressed the social problem of drug addiction in rural America. The silence of the church on the issue makes me a little bit ashamed to be a United Methodist minister but because Patterson has spoken up I am proud to be a DBT fan.
I have nowhere else to go. There is no demand in the priesthood for elderly drug addicts
Tequila Cowboy wrote:Production to me is the whole shooting match, in some ways even more important than the songs. Poor production, either through lack of money or just a bad producer, can absolutely ruin a fine collection of songs and make them nigh unlistenable (see Tom Petty's Full Moon Fever (blech) or Jason Isbell's Sirens of the Ditch). Good production can save a fair to middling collection of songs (Replacements All Shook Down or Jason Isbell & The 400 Unit). If Pizza Deliverance didn't sound like mud, I'm sure it would top a lot of favorites lists. Maybe mine.
Given your affection for The Replacements & Husker Du, I find this post to be a bit out of character for you TC. The production on most of the albums for those bands make it very, very difficult for someone who missed that scene to go back and fully appreciate those records. I got into The Truckers with The Dirty South & have no problem with the production of Pizza Deliverance.
You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
- DPM
Tequila Cowboy wrote:Production to me is the whole shooting match, in some ways even more important than the songs. Poor production, either through lack of money or just a bad producer, can absolutely ruin a fine collection of songs and make them nigh unlistenable (see Tom Petty's Full Moon Fever (blech) or Jason Isbell's Sirens of the Ditch). Good production can save a fair to middling collection of songs (Replacements All Shook Down or Jason Isbell & The 400 Unit). If Pizza Deliverance didn't sound like mud, I'm sure it would top a lot of favorites lists. Maybe mine.
Given your affection for The Replacements & Husker Du, I find this post to be a bit out of character for you TC. The production on most of the albums for those bands make it very, very difficult for someone who missed that scene to go back and fully appreciate those records. I got into The Truckers with The Dirty South & have no problem with the production of Pizza Deliverance.
You're completely right. It is hard to turn people on to those bands due to the production. The thing is that I was there so I can overlook it a bit. Hell I can overlook it with PD as well, but it's hard to turn people on to that album for that reason. See I think production is sneaky, people can dislike an album and not even realize that production is the reason why and likewise if they like it. Then again some folks just don't care.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
Tequila Cowboy wrote:Production to me is the whole shooting match, in some ways even more important than the songs. Poor production, either through lack of money or just a bad producer, can absolutely ruin a fine collection of songs and make them nigh unlistenable (see Tom Petty's Full Moon Fever (blech) or Jason Isbell's Sirens of the Ditch). Good production can save a fair to middling collection of songs (Replacements All Shook Down or Jason Isbell & The 400 Unit). If Pizza Deliverance didn't sound like mud, I'm sure it would top a lot of favorites lists. Maybe mine.
Given your affection for The Replacements & Husker Du, I find this post to be a bit out of character for you TC. The production on most of the albums for those bands make it very, very difficult for someone who missed that scene to go back and fully appreciate those records. I got into The Truckers with The Dirty South & have no problem with the production of Pizza Deliverance.
You're completely right. It is hard to turn people on to those bands due to the production. The thing is that I was there so I can overlook it a bit. Hell I can overlook it with PD as well, but it's hard to turn people on to that album for that reason. See I think production is sneaky, people can dislike an album and not even realize that production is the reason why and likewise if they like it. Then again some folks just don't care.
As long as you don't get all fuckin' audiophile on me, I can accept that answer.
You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
- DPM
There are some low-fi productions that are great. The first Michelle Shocked album, the first Cowboy Junkies album, The Velvet Underground Live 1969 are some examples. Echo and The Bunnymen recorded Ocean Rain in some ancient studio in Paris. Zen Arcade is a great album but the production is kind of flat, especially the cd version. But given the fact that so many eighties albums were ruined by the big gated snare sounds, sampling and inappropriate use of synthesizers, it is the lower budget indie albums that have held up best 25 years later. Producers and engineers in large studios can go crazy with gimmicky technology and certain trends that are ill-suited for the music. I mean, the eighties big snare sound? I can't think of anything other than disco music where that might be a good thing.
I have nowhere else to go. There is no demand in the priesthood for elderly drug addicts
Patterson addressed it with a FAR better song in Aftermath USA than he did in You and Your Crystal Meth.
I agree it's a subject that needs to be addressed. It nearly wiped my hometown off the map earlier about 6-7 years ago (things have gotten a lot better), but that doesn't excuse the song for being pretty crappy by DBT standards.
Last edited by Iowan on Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regarding the production thing, TC, I think you're on to something. I love Full Moon Fever, but at this point I have to try to look past the awful Jeff Lynne production. Great songs, horrid production. Born in the USA suffers from this to a lesser extent. It's an album I absolutely love and don't tire of, but can you imagine if it had a leaner, more muscular production?
However, I don't think DBT suffers from production issues. For me, production is only a problem where something is either ridiculously overproduced, or underproduced to the point that it sounds like it was recorded with a Fisher-Price tape recorder. PD and GB are obviously made on a lower budget, but to my ears the production doesn't hide anything, nor does it distract. It's not as good as the stuff done with David Barbe and a little more dough, but it doesn't hold it back either, to my ears.
RevMatt wrote: Patterson Hood and a few other alt. country song writers are the only ones who have really addressed the social problem of drug addiction in rural America. The silence of the church on the issue makes me a little bit ashamed to be a United Methodist minister but because Patterson has spoken up I am proud to be a DBT fan.
I'm going a little off topic here, but I am also a member of the United Methodist church. I am not a minister (although my preacher would say that we are all ministers). I assume that this comment wasn't really meant to be taken that you were literally ashamed. God gave us all this free will which makes some of use meth and some of us not, some of us become DBT fans and some become Nickleback fans. The methodist church doesn't have a voice like the catholic church does or even like the black church does, but that doesn't mean that you can't do anything about this problem. Fair or not, you job isn't just to help prevent this kind of thing but also to help pick up the pieces after the fact. There is still much work that you can do, brother. Use Patterson as inspiration - I'm thinking maybe a choral rendition of You & Your Crystal Meth at your church?
Patterson addressed it with a FAR better song in Aftermath USA than he did in You and Your Crystal Meth.
I agree it's a subject that needs to be addressed. It nearly wiped my hometown off the map earlier about 6-7 years ago (things have gotten a lot better), but that doesn't excuse the song for being pretty crappy by DBT standards.
I gotta disagree with this - I've had very personal struggles with meth, and to me "Y&YCM" spells the meth epidemic out a lot clearer than Aftermath, which I never saw as a "meth" song; meth just happens to play a part in a much bigger story in that song, IMO
RevMatt wrote:I don't dislike ABAAC. If the album has problems, it is not necessarily with the songwriting. It might be the arrangements or maybe the production.
I think it's poorly sequenced.
The sooner we put those assholes in the grave&piss on the dirt above it, the better off we'll be
RevMatt wrote:I don't dislike ABAAC. If the album has problems, it is not necessarily with the songwriting. It might be the arrangements or maybe the production.
I think it's poorly sequenced.
Agreed. Maybe the only instance of that in the entirety of the DBT catalog. I think that's one of the reasons we keep debating it.
We call him Scooby Do, but Scooby doesn’t do. Scooby, is not involved
I know most of you all probably already know these things, but for anybody who doesn't:
"You and Your Crystal Meth" was originally recorded for ABAAC, but left off and eventually used on BTCD. I think it works MUCH better on the latter, but it's definitely a moody track, and I can understand if people don't care for it, whichever album it was on.
I have heard that one of the original tracking sequences for ABAAC had "When The Well Runs Dry" on it, but it was replaced by "Daylight". The band also recorded "Drop The Weapon and Run" at the same sessions, so Jason's 4 tracks from the ABAAC sessions are all very different stylistically.
Also, "Aftermath USA" is a studio song to the ultimate degree; when the band was in the studio for ABAAC, Barbe really liked a riff they were goofing around with between actual takes, and stayed in the studio to tinker with it after the band called it quits for the night. He made some cuts, looped a couple of tracks, and created the instrumental version of the song. When he played it for Patterson the next day, Patterson liked it so much that he sat down and wrote the lyrics in the studio. I'm not even sure if they re-recorded the instrumental tracks or not.
RevMatt wrote:I don't dislike ABAAC. If the album has problems, it is not necessarily with the songwriting. It might be the arrangements or maybe the production.
I think it's poorly sequenced.
Agreed. Maybe the only instance of that in the entirety of the DBT catalog. I think that's one of the reasons we keep debating it.
I'm not sure I agree on the sequencing (I honestly haven't thought about it that much for ABAAC), but I just found the original sequencing in an old email:
01 Goodbye 02 Feb 14 03 Gravity's Gone 04 Easy On Yourself 05 Aftermath USA 06 When The Well Runs Dry 07 Wednesday 08 Little Bonnie 09 Space City 10 A Blessing and A Curse 11 A World Of Hurt
So not a whole lot different, but some differences...
